Great writing once again Rose. Thank you for showing up with such an authenticity. I want everybody to feel safe in this world, welcome and accepted as well.
I might not have five through all of this but I shall admit a lot of this is familiar to me.
Yet, I don't wish about these experiences because it's immediately turned against me as of, by having a penis I had deserved it.
Or by being white I deserved to be beaten by black people and so on.
It seems stupid to me as we could create more connection and work together but it seems like most of the prior are more interested in fighting against them working with each other.
It seems that the commonality here is the experience of being treated poorly, and then being either blamed or shamed (or both) for bringing it up. The negative consequences might be slightly different for different people groups who speak up, but the issue is the same.
I wish I knew the solution. All I can think of for now is that I know there are many people who don't feel safe to bring this types of issues to light, because the consequences for them at that time in their life may be too severe. And that is ok and understandable. So for those of us in seasons of life who can afford to speak up about our experiences on their behalf, it is important for us to do so.
Thank you again for sharing your experiences Florian, it is important food for thought.
You paint a good picture, and it does sound awful. However, the talking down happens to men, too. And it's not acceptable for us to talk about it.
Edit: If a man wrote a post in a similar tone to all the women who just "wouldn't get it," he would have a comment section full of "misogynist."
Edit Edit: In this case, actually, it would be right, because the tone is very clearly giving an impression that men are too stupid or mean to listen to it.
4: I don't mean to discount the obvious trauma and discomfort that is in here, and even perhaps the reactive resentment, which is natural. I just wanted to throw in there that it may be an indication back to some women of what men go through that a very hostile and condescending tone towards them is totally acceptable.
Thank you for your sincere response. I think it can be tough to sort of see how condescending something might seem to others. I think if someone wrote an article sort of presenting grievances to women and saying things like, “It’s only gonna take a second, hold on, hold on, baby . . .” it would come off as Condescending.
Edit: Actually partially because men have been given this message in work trainings, on TV, in movies, on Substack posts, and everywhere else for like forty years. So it's like, to pretend that that all didn't happen and then treat men like they're babies who need their medicine is bad. Just talk to us like adults.
Final: I know a lot of this also can do with style, and stuff. I just wanted to say it.
Matthew, to be clear, no it isn't hard to see. The article does use condescending language.
Within the context of the post, that language use was intentional - and is used as a literary means to say much more than is written... Specifically, to put emphasis on the fact that I'm frustrated with explaining the same things over and over again.
To your point, men like you have been learning about this stuff 'for 40 years'. So the post is basically saying, 'You've been learning this for 40 years? Then which part aren't you understanding? Why has nothing changed? Here, let me try again, slower this time.'
I’m not sure what men are doing to indicate that they don’t understand. Maybe I’m just seeing a war against actual people who are offensive and then interpreting the arrows at particular people as intended for all of us.
Matthew, the article discusses the specific audience as really being those who work in male dominated environments.
There are many men who seek to learn more about these types of issues so that they can be allies, whether they work in these types of environments or not.
But if you don't work in an environment like that - it is very likely more difficult to understand the context. And that is ok. If you don't feel like this is something you are in a position to help with, it's understandable. It's not going to resonate with everyone.
Great writing once again Rose. Thank you for showing up with such an authenticity. I want everybody to feel safe in this world, welcome and accepted as well.
I might not have five through all of this but I shall admit a lot of this is familiar to me.
Yet, I don't wish about these experiences because it's immediately turned against me as of, by having a penis I had deserved it.
Or by being white I deserved to be beaten by black people and so on.
It seems stupid to me as we could create more connection and work together but it seems like most of the prior are more interested in fighting against them working with each other.
This is an important comment Florian, thank you.
It seems that the commonality here is the experience of being treated poorly, and then being either blamed or shamed (or both) for bringing it up. The negative consequences might be slightly different for different people groups who speak up, but the issue is the same.
I wish I knew the solution. All I can think of for now is that I know there are many people who don't feel safe to bring this types of issues to light, because the consequences for them at that time in their life may be too severe. And that is ok and understandable. So for those of us in seasons of life who can afford to speak up about our experiences on their behalf, it is important for us to do so.
Thank you again for sharing your experiences Florian, it is important food for thought.
Rose
Thank you too Rose!
My experience with these topics is to embrace that people are not ready to hear me.
Then I deal with my feelings and I adapt according to what I desire to create more in my life.
Finally, I let go of who I was at the time of the events and I blossom even more.
You paint a good picture, and it does sound awful. However, the talking down happens to men, too. And it's not acceptable for us to talk about it.
Edit: If a man wrote a post in a similar tone to all the women who just "wouldn't get it," he would have a comment section full of "misogynist."
Edit Edit: In this case, actually, it would be right, because the tone is very clearly giving an impression that men are too stupid or mean to listen to it.
4: I don't mean to discount the obvious trauma and discomfort that is in here, and even perhaps the reactive resentment, which is natural. I just wanted to throw in there that it may be an indication back to some women of what men go through that a very hostile and condescending tone towards them is totally acceptable.
Hi Matthew, thanks for the read.
Yes, this was a challenging article.
I’m not sure I am following all of your comments, but I think you’re saying that a man would be called a misogynist if he wrote an article like this.
I suppose that is possible, however if it was written with the same spirit as this article - I highly doubt that would be the case at all.
Thank you for your sincere response. I think it can be tough to sort of see how condescending something might seem to others. I think if someone wrote an article sort of presenting grievances to women and saying things like, “It’s only gonna take a second, hold on, hold on, baby . . .” it would come off as Condescending.
Edit: Actually partially because men have been given this message in work trainings, on TV, in movies, on Substack posts, and everywhere else for like forty years. So it's like, to pretend that that all didn't happen and then treat men like they're babies who need their medicine is bad. Just talk to us like adults.
Final: I know a lot of this also can do with style, and stuff. I just wanted to say it.
Matthew, to be clear, no it isn't hard to see. The article does use condescending language.
Within the context of the post, that language use was intentional - and is used as a literary means to say much more than is written... Specifically, to put emphasis on the fact that I'm frustrated with explaining the same things over and over again.
To your point, men like you have been learning about this stuff 'for 40 years'. So the post is basically saying, 'You've been learning this for 40 years? Then which part aren't you understanding? Why has nothing changed? Here, let me try again, slower this time.'
I’m not sure what men are doing to indicate that they don’t understand. Maybe I’m just seeing a war against actual people who are offensive and then interpreting the arrows at particular people as intended for all of us.
Matthew, the article discusses the specific audience as really being those who work in male dominated environments.
There are many men who seek to learn more about these types of issues so that they can be allies, whether they work in these types of environments or not.
But if you don't work in an environment like that - it is very likely more difficult to understand the context. And that is ok. If you don't feel like this is something you are in a position to help with, it's understandable. It's not going to resonate with everyone.
Okay, I appreciate your restraint. If it’s particular to certain people, then that’s understandable.